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Talk:Endgame (episode)
Episode talk page Maintenance links __TOC__ Icheb Should it be mentioned somewhere that, aside from a game of kal-toh with Tuvok, this character is omitted from the episode? He isn't present in the future (so one might surmise he's one of the 18 in addition to seven who died) but wouldn't that have been a name worthy of mention by Admiral Janeway to her younger self? --AgentProxy 15:51, 10 April 2009 (UTC) Dialogue Quoted form page: "Chakotay and Seven would get married but that Chakotay would die 3 years from then leaving Seven, now reequipped with emotions, unable to deal with the trauma. She along with 18 other crew members will die in the continuing voyage home." I just saw the episode and I've put down the dialogue between Admiral Janeway and Captain Janeway: Admiral: "Seven of Nine is going to die." Captain: "What?" A: "Three years from now. She'll be injured on an away mission. She'll make it back to Voyager and die in the arms of her husband." C: "Husband!?" A: "Chakotay. He'll never be the same after Seven's death." Based on this I'll modify the quote. :"He'll never be the same after Seven's death -- and neither will you." It says in the page that Admiral Janeway asks how she deals with "all of those voices talking at once" without getting terrible headaches. In actuality the Admiral says "You must get terrible headaches," tauntingly after her first observation of the multiple voices talking at once. Nitpick-ish... I know, but after so long, we should have it right, right? --AgentProxy 15:25, 10 April 2009 (UTC)AgentProxy I think we should add "You wish to insure the Wellbeing of your Collective, I can apprecate That... I'll Help you" Spoken By the Borg Queen to Admaral Janeway Refrence starting at 5:15 I think it's a Real Good Quote. – Alexlyoko13 00:11, October 21, 2009 (UTC) ::If you want to add it then add it. — Morder (talk) Destruction of the transwarp hub Quoted from page: "As her physical body falls apart and she lies dying on the floor of the Unimatrix, she issues a self-destruct order and the entire transwarp hub complex explodes." I'm very sure the Enterprise fired three torpedos at one of the circles inside the transwarp tunnel, destroying it and creating a chain effect that ends in blowing up the transhub hub. It's never mentioned in the movie that the hub was willingly destroyed by the Queen. Why should the dying Queen give a self destruct issue for the hub? I think this part of the text has to be changed. :Agreed, I'll get to it. And it's Voyager, conduit, and episode. - AJ Halliwell 03:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC) Why isn't this two parts? I'm getting ready to watch this now and it is definitely two parts. I seem to recall watching it in two parts during original airing as well. Slamlander 17:11, 10 Oct 2005 (UTC) :IT was originally aired as a one-part telefilm, i believe. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 17:21, 10 Oct 2005 (UTC) ::* Never mind, you are correct. Slamlander 17:29, 10 Oct 2005 (UTC) Motive is wrong I just finished watching this. There are two points: :# The box for the tape advertises two parts. The contents of the tape is one large telefilm. :# The motive for using the virus is different than that posted in the article, as is the nature of the dilema. I will make the minimal corrections required. `Slamlander #On MA, all episodes that were originally double length telefilms then later broken up into two part episodes for tapes and reshowings can be noted as such -- but our article is formatted for the original form of the episode -- before it was broken up. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 22:36, 10 Oct 2005 (UTC) :*Thanks, I will add that to the part I am editing. I take it that it goes under "Background"? Cannons go "BOOM"! 12:20, 11 Oct 2005 (UTC) Minor rework turned into major effort (gah) I certainly didn't intend to do this much work to it but it's done. There are some spelling errors and I am certain that I over-used commas, as usual. I did uncover some stuff about the Borg. I am taking it under advisement as to whether I want to work that much harder. I have a book to finish. Cannons go "BOOM"! 20:27, 11 Oct 2005 (UTC) Dr. Pulaski? ALIVE? As Janeway leaves Tuvoc when she visits, you can hear a PA in the background. I could have sworn they called for Dr. Pulaski. Can anyone confirm this? *Reply I replayed this part of the episode twice, and can confirm that the Doctor called for on the PA was Dr. Pulaski. :*I think it goes without saying that there are probably more than one Dr. Pulaski in the Star Trek universe and probably several in Starfleet. Unless the page gave her full name it's probably, at best, just a little homage the writers threw in. --Maestro4k 19:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC) Needs of the Many, Out Weigh The Needs of the Few Didn't I hear Tuvok say this quote also? --Shane 19:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC) :Never mind.. http://www.chakoteya.net/Voyager/722.htm --Shane 05:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC) Death of the Borg Queen I think the Queen has died four times (or at least her body has been destroyed) that we know of. The first time was at the end of (supported by Picard's line in ), then again at the end of First Contact (when she disolved). She also was killed at the end of when the Borg Diamond she was in was destroyed when Voyager imploded the transwarp Conduit for a light year, and then again in this episode, " ". The only way to avoid this is to say that the queen didn't really die because her conscious is separate from the body - but then this would mean that she has never died at all! I don't think it's justifiable to say that she only died when we actually saw her die - after all, the only time we actually saw her dead body was at the end of First Contact. And this logic would mean that no characters die unless we actaully see them dead (such as Fred Durst), and I don't see how holding this standard for the Borg Queen but not for other characters can be held. If no one objects, I'll adjust the background info for this episode to reflect this.--Tiberius 03:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC) :Reply: Queeny was not on the diamond. Not on the Cube in Both Worlds. :Yes She Died in in end game. :And the movie there was either another queen or maybe they were using TIME TRAVEL. :In the episode with the temperal bomb, Seven stated that she new about First Contact :and maybe we should assume that thej borg took steps to ensure that the Queen didn't die. I think. -- ::That doesn't jibe with what we already know. Picard specifically stated that this particular Borg Queen from First Contact was the one on the cube at Best of Both Worlds, for example. --OuroborosCobra talk 18:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC) ::: First of all we've watched her die, on screen, at least twice. It is arguable weather or not she was actually on the Diamond that chased the Delta Flyer through the trans-warp conduit or not. It is even more debatable that she was on the Cube in Best of Both Worlds. (As far as that instance goes, just because Picard was aware of her "presence" didn't mean she was physically there. The Queen spoke to Data -before- her body was assembled in First Contact. That means, to at least some degree, her consciousness is stored by means beyond simply her physical form.) :::She definitely "died" in First Contact. I also think there's a consensus that her form was destroyed in Endgame. The unicomplex exploded and her body literally came apart. We even saw her torso "disconnect" from her skull and spine. Was anybody arguing that for someone to truly be dead one must see them die on screen? --AgentProxy 15:37, 10 April 2009 (UTC) Reunion setting Inside a hotel, the ten year reunion is taking place. That's not a hotel. It's Admiral Janeway's apartment, the same one to which Dr. Joe pays her a visit later and the one in which she's watching TV in the teaser. Grandfather paradox There's a major "grandfather paradox" problem with this episode. By changing the past, Admiral Janeway was effectively erasing or overwriting her own timeline, such that the individual she was, with all her experiences and motivations, would not exist in 2404. Thus, whatever Kathryn Janeway exists in 2404 would have no motivation, let alone any need, to travel into the past to change Voyager's future. I have seen similar "plot discrepancies" discussed in other episode articles; shouldn't this be mentioned here? As a side note, suppose Admiral Janeway's plan had worked the way she anticipated, that she went into the past and guided Voyager through the transwarp hub into the Alpha Quadrant. What was then supposed to become of her? Was she going to live out the rest of her life in her past/Captain Janeway's present? :The time travel reverses causality, effects can "cause" the cause, and observed before the cause. (cf. ) On a side note, the grandfather paradox doesn't really stand up, if someone has the ability to time travel (eg, 1985 to 1885) then, all they have to do is displace an equal mass from the 1985 with that of 1885, and once the person is back in 1885, everything will follow the laws of physics like normal (ie, putting a bullet in your grandfather will kill him), afterall a person doesn't have to be born to exist, killing your grandfather have no effect on the particles that make up you. Time travelling to the past (causality is reversed, the effect "precedes" the cause, although there really isn't an absolute direction for which precedes which in the timeline now given that this kind of time travel is possible.) -- 21:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC) Reply: In Star Trek Time doesn't cling to people. When Time traveling youre written in to that timeline. And arn't affected by changes in your own time. ::What really bothers me is that the queen herself says that if the voyager is destroyed admiral Janeway will not be able to infect her and everything will change. That doesn't make any sense to me. ::Jackoverfull 23:59, 6 December 2008 (UTC) :::Does chronexaline have something to do with it? I think it acts like the temporal shielding from Year of Hell. Dave''Subspace Message'' 03:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Is it posible that That's How time intende it to Happen?, That's Why The Temporal Intergity people did not interfere, As for the Queen, She May Have Been Confused, form the dying thing... – Alexlyoko13 02:17, October 21, 2009 (UTC) ::::if you look closesly at the episodes Relativity, you can see that in manny cases some universes part from each other like in Year of Hell. You clearly see the different outcomes of reforming the universe. ::::Bason on that the grandfather theory is impossible. ::::Janeway can only help herself if she goes the same way as her older self did. ::::the point of paralel universes is that Janeway can exist in both ways because they are not in eachothers way. ::::A>>B>>C>>D ::::say A is the younger selve of Janeway and D the older one ::::A+D>>E>>F ::::Making the story a totally different one, B and C get lost in the proces Tea thermos The tea thermos Reg hands to Admiral Janeway before her departure bears a striking resemblance to the container of warp plasma Torres gave to the Automated Unit in "Prototype". Can anyone verify this? --Skyler 20:37, 3 February 2007 (UTC) :Yep, they are identical, only difference is the colour of the metal. The warp plasma container was golden, the tea thermos is blue, but the same prop was used. --Jörg 11:24, 4 February 2007 (UTC) ::Wow, that must be powerful tea! ;-) --Skyler 16:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC) Production # Clarification Shouldn't the production number for the feature-length version of this episode be listed as "828" (as given in the Voyager DVDs)? Holes in Summary There is a rather sizeable chunk of missing information between Janeway hatching a plot with Barclay and stealing the chrono deflector. Was this done on purpose? Was it because the flashbacks and flashforwards made it difficult to summarize? There is no mention of Tuvok's illness and other character changes during these scenes. -Topher208 03:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC) Date Redux? Some anon changed the date of this , , and this episode to "21 November 2377", "13 November 2377", and "21 December 2377" respectively from "2378". They had previously edited the BG notes of to add: :However, this appears to be a continuity error, as the stardate of 54868.6 roughly corresponds to November 13, 2377, and all other stardates in this season begin with the digits "54", corresponding to the year 2377. What's the justification from this exact stardate to date correlation? -- Sulfur 08:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC) :There is none - the idea that a "stardate-delta" of 1000 equals exactly one year is speculation, and the idea that stardate XX000 corresponds to January 1st in the human calendar even more. :) -- Cid Highwind 09:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC) ::As I said on the Homestead talk page, I don't think the anon user checked the talk page there and saw the link to the forum discussion about the year. I agree with the results of that discussion — since Neelix's comment places in 2378 then it's 2378 from there to the end of the season. I'm all for changing their edits back. --Maestro4k 12:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC) Transwarp plothole? As I'm sure has been noted by many of the great minds here at Memory Alpha, the convenient exit point of an established Borg transwarp conduit less than a lightyear from Earth is a bit of a plot contrivance. -If it had been there for any length of time, why didn't the Borg throw a fleet at our planet? (Do they prefer to send lone Cubes on the "Scenic Route" through the Neutral Zone?) -And if (as you may argue) it was a recent addition to the Borg's galactic roadmap, in preparation for an imminent attack on such a scale, wouldn't that attack have occurred (to devestating effect) by 2404? Just one of the many examples of lazy writing on the part of Berman & Braga on this episode (need I mention Transphasic torpedoes, or the absence of the Century26 Temporal Watchdog Committee?). Also worthy of note was the colouring of the Transwarp conduits - they looked exactly like a Quantum Slipstream Eddie. -- Destructor 20:47, 15 April 2007 (GMT) : Nitpicks don't belong on episode pages (thanks for leaving it out of the article), and this isn't a place for episode discussion. Discussion pages such as this one are for discussing what should or shouldn't be on the page. If you have a legitimate question, please ask at the Reference desk, otherwise it is more appropriate for a Star Trek discussion board.--Tim Thomason 21:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC) : Of those the only thing with any real validity is the transwarp conduit color (and that was likely a production error), the others can be explained with in-universe explanations. (For example, the future Star Fleet time-line folks didn't get involved because this was supposed to happen in the correct time-line, the same way the time incursions in previous series were.) --Maestro4k 20:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC) :Reply: Very Clever But Since Admiral Janeway Already Knew About this, We can assume That the Borg Faild. But With many losses. "Warning, regeneration cycle incomplete." The article says that the computer normally doesn't say Warning. However, in Child's Play the computer says it twice. Once when Mezoti can not sleep due to Icheb leaving and again when Seven of Nine is awoken by Mezoti. 12:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC) Significance of Stardate What is the significance of the Stardate that Tuvok keeps repeating (53317)? Perhaps some explanation could be given in the trivia section? Thanks! -- 20:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC) :This is the dialogue from the episode that referes to that stardate: :EMH: Stardate 53317. If my memory files are accurate, that was the day Captain Janeway was abducted by the Kellidians. Is that who you're talking about, Tuvok? Captain Janeway? :TUVOK: Her disappearance remains a mystery. :EMH: No, you solved that mystery, Tuvok. You rescued the Captain and brought her back to Voyager safe and sound. Remember? :Apart from that, we know nothing. --Jörg 20:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC) Endgame Phaser ??? Hi, in some shops, so called Endgame Phasers are being offered for sale. Perhaps I'm just blind, but where the heck does such a phaser appear in Endgame? Thanks!– Cmdr. Wernersson 10:36, 29 July 2007 (UTC) :The redesigned phaser only appeared ina deleted scene of "Endgame" and wasn't seen in the actual episode as broadcast. Here's more info about the Nemesis/Endgame phaser. --Jörg 11:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC) Alternate Ending I removed the following: :* Two endings for the episode were filmed. The unused ending had Voyager come out of transwarp space back in the Delta Quadrant and continuing its long journey home. Cite please. --Jörg 15:32, 30 September 2007 (UTC) Wrong Year The future year the article gives, 2401, is wrong. *''Voyager'' returned to the Alpha Quadrant in 2401. But in the episode, the news announcer says that Voyager returned after 23 years in the Delta Quadrant. The transmission is in celebration of the 10th anniversary of Voyager's return.. *Reginald Barclay gives at toast in the episode, and says: "This is the ''Voyager family, 33 years later. Bigger... but also diminished." This shows that events of the future timeline, including Janeway's going back in time to 2378, occured 10 years ''after Voyager's return in 2401. 2378 + 23 + 10 = 2411. This is the correct future year and I intend to change it to that. – [[User:Eyes Only|''Watching...]][[User Talk:Eyes Only| ''listening...]] 11:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC) :Someone who isn't me has already changed this, but I think it bears explaining here. Your math is somewhat flawed. If Voyager returned after 23 years in the Delta Quadrant, then that would include the first seven years of their journey (2371-2378; the years we saw on the series). In other words, they got back 16 years after 2378 (7 + 16 = 23 years in the Delta Quadrant). Add 10 years to that and you get 2404. 2378 + 16 + 10. Or, to make this much simpler, it's 33 years after they were first lost in the Delta Quadrant. They spent 23 years getting home and now it's 10 years later. 2371, the year they were lost, plus 33, also equals 2404. The mistake is in counting 23 years from the end of the seven-year journey instead of the beginning. - Bridge 08:21, 4 November 2007 (UTC) Oh. Yes. I see. I am indeed in error. Thank you.– [[User:Eyes Only|''Watching...]][[User Talk:Eyes Only| ''listening...]] 21:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC) Beltran's rolling eyes Re: The entry in Background Information which suggests Robert Beltran supposedly rolls his eyes (in shot) when taking the helm during the final scene. I was very curious after reading this to see if he does actually get away with it. Having watched the episode recently however, I feel that this entry should be removed. It may be in keeping with Beltran's well documented criticism of the show in its final years, and certainly makes for a nice little anecdote, but it doesn't actually happen. The look he gives is a staple look Beltran uses throughout the latter seasons of the series, characterised by a slightly open-mouthed smile with a look to his left. It could be argued that by this point, Beltran was completely disenfranchised and was simply going through the motions. Certainly the humour and engagement with the character Beltran brought to the role in so much of the first three seasons has long since evaporated, and so his performance perhaps conveys his own personal boredom and frustration at times, but the physical rolling of the eyes simply does not happen. *entry amended following time to allow for responses. --Teestee 23:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC) :I too was watching this scene closely after first reading about the supposed "eye roll". Not having a big-screen TV or anything prevented a really good look, but it seems that what (Teestee?) said Beltran actually gave, "a slightly open-mouthed smile with a look to his left", was exactly what was given. Beltran may have internally rolled his eyes (and I'm sure finding his actual feelings during the shooting of that scene won't be difficult), but, on camera, Chatokay didn't. --The Time Traveller 23:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC) Paradox *This episode is a great illustration of the "Grandfather Paradox" of time travel. Since Admiral Janeway travels back in time to make sure that Voyager gets home early and succeeds, the events leading up to Janeway's reasons to travel back in time no longer occur. That means that Janeway will not travel back in time, meaning those events will now happen, causing the original timeline to occur again. :Removed as it's unnecessary? --Morder 00:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC) ::I seem to remember some episode where Janeway (or someone else) even whined about temporal mechanics making no sense anyways. I see no reason for us to make sense out of what they won't on the show. --OuroborosCobra talk 00:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC) Featured Article? I don't know what everyone else thinks but I think this deserves to be a featured article. There's lots of description of the episode, lots of quotes and background information. I don't think much more can be added to it. I'm only fairly new to MA so I was wondering how I go about nominating it for FA status and if anyone would back this up? Thanks, TrekFan 15:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC) Joe I removed the following. :Joe, the name chosen by the doctor, is the name of Robert Picardo's character on the show Home Improvement. Unless it was intentional, it doesn't belong in this article. --From Andoria with Love 01:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC) Successful FA archived (11th June, 2008) I would like to suggest that this article be put up for nomination as it has a detailed summary, lots of quotes and a relevant background information. There doesn't seem to be much more that can be added to it. TrekFan 17:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC) *'SUPPORT (Provisionally)': There are three red links in the co-star section. I think the main body of the article and the sub-sections should all link to existing articles (note that this does not include the references section at the very bottom which also has several red links). I support this so long as those three red links are turned towards existing articles, even just stubs. -FC 22:01, 1 June 2008 (UTC) *'SUPPORT'. It is refreshing to have a Featured Article nomination that isn't a self-nomination. I have been watching this article for over a year since I made a comment on the talk page and it has come a long way in that time. I have fixed the links as Fleet Captain suggested. Definitely deserving article! – Topher 02:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC) *'SUPPORT' I wrote the summary. I'm very glad it meets with such approval. I thank those who have contributed further to it. – [[User:Eyes Only|''Watching...]][[User Talk:Eyes Only| ''listening...]] 02:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC) *'WHY ARE WE ALL SHOUTING!' :-p. Support. Nice summary, nicely illustrated, nice quotes, detailed background info with citations. In regards to red links, I don't think that the existence of these in an article should be a bar to being FA. Unless it's a link that needs fixing (admittedly like one here) or is inappropriate, it reflects absolutely nothing on the quality of the article itself. On the contrary, if the article becomes an FA hopefully more people will see the red links and fill in the gaps.– Cleanse 02:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC) * Come on guys, only one more support required to feature. I'd hate for this to lapse with 4 votes.– Cleanse 10:23, 11 June 2008 (UTC) : Yeah, it only needs one more vote. Please support this article! Thanks. TrekFan 10:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC) *'Support.' I fixed a small bit of formatting (removed an extra set of parentheses). Other than that, it is a great article. ----[[User:Mainphramephreak| Willie]][[User Talk:Mainphramephreak| LLAP]] 12:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC) FA article nomination considered successful and archived. All points resolved. TrekFan 18:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC) Christian Maguire According to IMDb, Christian Maguire played someone named "Ryder" in this episode, but she's not listed in the credits here. Anyone know why? Is this another error on IMDb's part? --From College with Love :Hey Shran. I've already started a talk page for Maguire here. ;) – Tom 15:55, 10 February 2009 (UTC) Ahh, good to know. Thanks! :) --From Andoria with Love 15:30, 20 February 2009 (UTC) Removed Removed the following nitpick: :Note: When the ''Rhode Island intercepts SC-4, the view of the interior of the shuttle shows that the armor is still deployed (you can see the honeycomb plates against the window), yet the external view shows the shuttle without the armor deployed.''--31dot 03:02, 9 April 2009 (UTC) :I also removed the following: :*In the last scene of the episode, a Galaxy Class and an Escort Class vessel are seen escorting Voyager to Earth. This may represent the three main ships of the TNG series. The USS Enterprise-D, the USS Defiant and USS Voyager. :*If one looks closely at the fleet attacking the Borg Sphere, you will notice there is also a Constitution Class Vessel in the Fleet. This may pay some small tribute to the Enterprise-A :*The USS Prometheus, introduced in the episode ( ), is also with the final fleet attacking the Borg Sphere. :In order: Speculation, need screenshot to verify along with speculation, and is only a vessel, not the actual ship (unless it can be proven otherwise). - Archduk3:talk 04:19, November 9, 2009 (UTC) ::I don't know about in the episode, but in the game Elite Force II, where the first level takes place during the events of Endgame and the return to Earth, a refit Constitution class is part of the fleet at Earth. --OuroborosCobra talk 16:04, November 9, 2009 (UTC) :::On the Prometheus Web Page, the image you use to show the Prometheus is actually taken from the episode Endgame Part II, as well, the first picture in Endgame Part II on the website shows the Galaxy Class and Escort Class on the Left and Bottom Center of the picture. I am almost absolutely sure it is paying homage to the three ships of the TNG series. This youtube video shows the final scene of Voyager http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8e8EieU8M8 At time index 6:40-6:41, the FIRST ship to appear onscreen in the fleet is the backside of the Prometheus and the same shot as on your other page. As for the constitution class vessel, it may be too small to make out, but at time index 7:03, their are four ships in the bottom right corner that make a diamond shape. However, the ship at the North end of the diamond as a too small engineering section to be an Excelsior Class Vessel or a Galaxy class, but the ship is shaped wrong to be an Akira or Nebula class, the ships engineering hull also appears to be circular, indicating it may be a Constitution Class Vessel. - Anonymous 19:13 November 9, 2009 ::::Regardless unless it can be cited as intentional it's just speculation. — Morder (talk) 00:31, November 10, 2009 (UTC) :While youtube is not the best resolution to check this at, I would say the ship in question could be a Constitution class vessel, but I don't have the season 7 DVDs, so I can't get a "decent" (like any of mine are) shot of it. The same can be said of the Prometheus class vessel, since part of the name is visible (maybe twice), but unreadable at youtube's resolution. - Archduk3:talk 01:09, November 10, 2009 (UTC)